SENATOR CALVERT -Are there any results available at this stage from the national skills audit and training need analysis of TAFE teachers?

MR BREWSTER -A report has been produced by the TAFE R&D centre, which is the first stage of an ongoing process. It looked at some aspects of the skills audit but it was not a complete document, given the very wide variety of people who teach in TAFE, from the high-tech end of the spectrum to the remedial end of the spectrum. So, further work is being done against the background of that initial report. We can provide a copy of the initial report to the Committee secretariat if you would like us to do so.

SENATOR CALVERT -Yes; thank you very much. I also understand that the Australian National Audit Office made audits of CRAFT in Queensland and ATS administration of Western Australia and South Australia during 1990. Do you have copies of the results of those audits, and has the Department seen fit to alter any of its procedures in line with those audit conclusions?

MR GREER -We do not have the national audit reports with us and I am uncertain whether or not the Audit Office has, in fact, formally reported on that.

SENATOR CALVERT -Even though it was done back in 1990, it still has not formally reported?

MR GREER -Could you clarify what report that is, please?

SENATOR CALVERT -Yes. The Australian National Audit Office made audits of CRAFT in Queensland and ATS administration of Western Australia and South Australia during 1990. I just wondered whether those results were available and whether the Department has changed any procedures as a result of those.

DR JOHNSTON -To our knowledge-and we would want to confirm this-the Auditor- General's reports of those two audits have not yet been publicly released but they are certainly at a well advanced stage and, yes, we are looking in detail at the changes that we need to make to respond to the Auditor's comments.

SENATOR CALVERT -I am sure this is going to interest Senator Aulich. I know that in Tasmania there have been some concerns about Federal Government funds for vocational training, and in particular pre-vocational training, which is provided to technical colleges. It appears that there has been some disagreement between the State Labor Government in Tasmania and the Federal Government as to where the responsibility should lie for the actioning of these vocational courses. Could you tell me the exact nature of the funding arrangements and the level of funding that has been provided in this area?

MR BREWSTER -As part of its budget strategy for the year before last, the Tasmanian Government reduced a number of programs in its TAFE sector, believing that they were best catered for in the schools sector. There has been discussion earlier this evening about participation in upper secondary education in Tasmania-and I do not want to go over that-as to the reasons why the Tasmanian Government made that decision. The Commonwealth, in response to the economic downturn and in the context of the Prime Minister's 12 March statement, in effect, reallocated the money which would otherwise have been provided for apprenticeship training, given the reduction in the number of apprentices, to pre-apprenticeship and pre-vocational training.

To some extent they were programs which needed to be primed up again in Tasmania, in part, because of the decisions that had previously been taken but there did happen to be a lot more young people who would otherwise have got apprenticeships who had left school and for whom returning to school was not seen to be a reasonable option. The State TAFE authority has now mounted what we regard as a successful operation in that area. Of the $50m which the Commonwealth provided under the Prime Minister's March 12 statement, $1.806m was allocated to Tasmania, and that is expected to allow for up to 1,000 places.

SENATOR CALVERT -When do you think the Finn report will be available for public scrutiny?

DR JOHNSTON -It is available. It has been released, Senator. It is now being distributed by both the Commonwealth Government and State Governments.

SENATOR CALVERT -Thank you for that. I note also that a review is going to be conducted of TAFE. Does the Government consider that there may be some revenue raising opportunities for the TAFE system?

MR WEBSTER -The State governments which have predominant responsibility for TAFE have been encouraging TAFE to become more entrepreneurial. That has been given full support by the Commonwealth under its funding arrangements over the last four years. The revenue raising capacity is predominantly, as it were, by providing fee for service courses to industry and a number of States are now significantly advanced in marketing courses in that way.

SENATOR CALVERT -Yes. I note that on page 73 also, when you talk about TAFE operating in a commercial way, you say they have the ability to interjoin ventures with industry. What type of joint ventures are envisaged could be conducted with industry?

MR BREWSTER -There are a number which are operating at present where, for example, industry sites are used for training because it is easier for the TAFE teacher to be transported to the industry site than for a group of students to be transported to the TAFE college. There is, also, some sharing of expensive pieces of equipment. One example is of a drilling rig which is really the industry's spare rig. They do not use it very often but if theirs breaks down they have access to it and the rest of the time it is available for training TAFE students. So, there are very significant cost savings to both sides in arrangements of that sort.

SENATOR CALVERT -I notice there is also some intention of TAFE competing with the private sector for business. Do you not think though that sometimes when government competes with the private sector it certainly has an unfair advantage because strictly it is not on a business footing? Have you got any plans to make sure that when they do compete with the private sector that the private sector will not be disadvantaged by some of the advantages that the Government can have?

MR WEBSTER -In a number of areas, Senator, there is not much competition, particularly in the high-tech areas where private entrepreneurial providers are very far and few between. The major private entrepreneurial providers in the TAFE area relate to business studies and stenography and those sorts of courses and they seem to be able to do quite well, notwithstanding the competition from TAFE. It has got to be remembered with respect to TAFE that the States' systems are public sector employers and, as you would appreciate, that has got its down side as well its upside in terms of cost levels.

SENATOR CALVERT -Thanks for that.

DR JOHNSTON -To explain that: in a number of areas, what governments are doing is removing the monopoly position of TAFE in some areas of activity rather than asking TAFE to compete with business that is already undertaken by the private sector. The portfolio has, for example, experience in the delivery of labour market programs where for some years both private providers and the TAFE sector do tender for provision of those programs.

SENATOR CALVERT -One more question to do with the Adult ESL and Literacy on page 81. What success has the Department had in attracting adults to literacy programs and what have been the most successful types of adult literacy programs that have been offered?

MS KAMARUL -The Department has ascertained through a recent review that the demand for literacy courses is far greater than the provision of courses and that has been one of the driving forces behind the development of the literacy and language policy. The Department has absolutely no difficulty at all in negotiating with the TAFE system in each State and Territory to provide courses. There is a crying need for more of them and, under the literacy and language policy, additional funding has been made available on a staged basis, so that the State TAFE system and the community education system will have greater and greater roles in providing literacy courses.

SENATOR CALVERT -I think Senator Aulich and Senator Tierney and I, during the course of our investigations into the adult education field, have actually experienced at first hand what you are talking about but it did give me an opportunity to ask what the most successful type of adult literacy program is that is offered. We have seen all types.

MS KAMARUL -We have not actually done a survey that would help us to ascertain that but clearly the TAFE system is able to cope with one type of client, one range of clients, and the community system with another. I think there is a very importance place for both.

The community sector is able to handle, in particular, people who find it difficult to go to TAFE for one reason or another and it is very good on one on one and intense programs, community based things. The TAFE system is well geared up for dealing with people with vocational needs as well as, increasingly, those who are at the bottom end of the literacy scale. So it is capable of doing a great variety of work in the literacy area, perhaps it has a greater capacity in that regard than the community sector has.

SENATOR CALVERT -Yes, we did have the opportunity of viewing an adult literacy program at an establishment in the Northern Territory, I suppose you would call them a captive audience. It was at Gunn Point Prison Farm or the University of Groote Eylandt, as some of them call it up there.

SENATOR TIERNEY -I have quite a few questions on the Training Guarantee Act.

CHAIRMAN -That is on 3.3, but you have one on 3.2. We will go back to that.