CHAIR —I welcome the officers from the Department of Education, Training and Youth Affairs. The committee has before it submission No. 135. Are there any changes you wish to make?

Dr Karmel —No.

CHAIR —The committee prefers all evidence to be given in public but, if at any time you wish any evidence or part of evidence or questions to be given in camera, you may make the request and the committee will consider the request. Such evidence subsequently may be made public by order of the Senate. I now invite you to make a brief opening statement. Of course we are getting close to time, so be as brief as possible, please. Then we will go to questions.

Dr Karmel —Thank you, Mr Chair. I thought it would be useful to provide some context for the department's submission. Voluntary student unionism is a matter of government policy. Quoting from the minister's second reading speech, the bill extends student choice. It creates two new choices for students at Australia's publicly funded universities: first, it gives students the right to choose whether or not they belong to an association; second, it gives students greater choice over what goods and services they purchase.

Choice about which goods and services they purchase is something expected by Australians. The compulsory general service fee charged on most Australian campuses requires students, as a condition of enrolment, to pay for services they may not want to use. On most campuses, in order to get a university degree you have to contribute to sporting facilities whether or not you play sport. On most campuses, in order to get a university education you have to contribute to student entertainment whether or not you have the time or the inclination to attend. Students should enjoy the same consumer right to purchase only the services that they want on and off campus.

This extract outlines the intention of the proposed amendments. The department's submission does not discuss this policy but provides some background information on a number of topics. These topics include the nature of student unionism, different models of student unionism in Australia, the scope of student services, recent state government action, and Commonwealth support for student organisations.

CHAIR —Thank you very much. Do you wish to make a statement?

Mr Giffing —No.

CHAIR —Any questions, Senator Carr?

Senator CARR —I will be brief. I notice, Dr Karmel, that your statement says, in reference to your submission, that the document does not comment on the government's policy. Can I suggest to you there are a number of editorials throughout the document. I suppose that is very difficult not to do. It goes on to say, `Rather, it provides the committee with factual information relevant to the inquiry in the following areas.' We had evidence this morning by the AVCC that this document is not factually correct and that the particulars or the categorisations on page 2 that are listed there are not correct. How do you respond to that?

Dr Karmel —The categories on page 2 are designed to illustrate the different sorts of models that we understand to exist in Australia. The category to which I think the AVCC referred was category No. 3, which we have described as compulsory payment and membership. Under this model there are no formal exemptions for conscientious objection. That is in the sense of objecting to both membership of the union and payment of the union fees. That is different from model 1, which exists in some universities, where the students are given the choice of joining an association, independent of the fee, and it is also different from model 2, where, if students have conscientious objections, they can specify that their fee goes into a special fund or charitable account.

Senator CARR —Could I draw your attention to Senate estimates question 462 which has also been referred to by another submission here today. That submission answered a question that I asked on 11 February where you were asked if you could provide the committee with a list of services provided by student organisations at each of Australia's publicly funded universities, and you indicated that you could not provide that information. I would now ask, if you are unable to provide a comprehensive list of services, how was it that you were able to comprehensively advise the minister on the effects of the proposal that he was advancing in the parliament?

Dr Karmel —In our submission we list out the types of student services that are available. They may not be 100 per cent comprehensive but they provide an indication of the sorts of services that are currently available. In terms of advice to the minister, obviously I cannot comment on that except to say that the second point of the government's policy is to give students the choice of whether they purchase or do not purchase a particular service.

Senator CARR —Quite clearly, the current position—as we have heard here today—is that students have that choice. They have the choice to opt out. There is a conscientious objection provision in all universities. Were you aware of that?

Dr Karmel —The conscientious objection provision, as I understand it, certainly applies to some universities. In other universities it may be the case that individuals do not have to join associations. But my understanding is that at a number of these universities it is the case that they still have to pay the fee.

Senator CARR —What is the department's view about the question of ensuring that freeloaders are in fact obliged to meet their share of contributions towards the provision of services?

Dr Karmel —That is a matter of policy advice to the minister.

Senator CARR —Is it a policy advice question?

Dr Karmel —Yes.

Senator CARR —So we do not have answers to that. I see. Are you aware that Sydney and Adelaide have conscientious clauses quite explicitly in their by[hyphen]laws?

Dr Karmel —No, I am not aware of that.

Senator CARR —Your submission seems to suggest otherwise. I am just wondering—

Dr Karmel —The submission as I see it in that section quite clearly puts out the four different sorts of models. They are the models that exist in Australia. We give some examples. For instance, in category 3 we say universities in this category appear to include the University of Adelaide, the University of Canberra and a number of other universities.

Senator CARR —Yes. Dr Karmel and Mr Giffing, I understand that you are at a distinct disadvantage on this position. I know that you are not necessarily reflecting the views of the department but the policy position that has been taken by the government on voluntary student unionism. Given that there has been so much evidence put before this committee—I understand that some 550 individual submissions and some 1,500 letters have been received by the committee—was it ever considered by the department that there would be such a strong reaction to the government's proposals?

Dr Karmel —That is a matter of policy advice to the minister.

CHAIR —The galleries are overflowing, Senator. You can see how concerned people are.

Senator CARR —Yes. We have heard today of the valuable voluntary work undertaken by various student organisations. CAPA, in particular, drew attention to the support that organisations render to the educational system as a whole and the educational experience. What provision is being proposed to replace these services if CAPA and the other organisations are forced out of business by this legislation?

Dr Karmel —I am not aware of any provisions.

Senator CARR —Thank you very much.

Senator CROSSIN —Dr Karmel, in your submission—I just need to clarify this for myself—on the bottom of the first page, you talk about the nature of student unionism and how student unions are not unions in the industrial sense, but your next paragraph then says:

Student representative councils (SRC) or student associations are generally distinct from unions.

Do you mean student unions as opposed to trade unions?

Dr Karmel —No. What that is referring to is the distinction between student representative councils that exist in some institutions and the bodies that run student facilities, which are often called student unions. There is a distinction in some universities, not in all universities.

Senator CROSSIN —We have heard today, and a lot of the submissions presented to us in this inquiry in relation to Western Australia show, that some of the universities there are subsidising services that the student associations undertook or in fact have picked up now those services themselves. That has become a de facto cut to their operational grants or their grants to run teaching and research programs. Has the department had a look at that scenario that now operates in Western Australia and the degree to which universities are now dipping into funds that would normally be used for teaching and research?

Dr Karmel —Universities are autonomous bodies. They have always been able to spend their money in whatever way they think best to provide education and research. It has always been the case that universities have put money into student services and student facilities. No doubt that still occurs and no doubt that the actual decisions that have been made in Western Australia have changed from year to year.

Senator CROSSIN —If this legislation goes through and it occurs to a greater extent than is currently happening now, has the department looked at any impact that might have on future increases or otherwise of funding to universities?

Dr Karmel —No.

Senator CROSSIN —I also want to ask about the international students and whether the impact of this legislation has been considered by the department on the export market and the kinds of aspects that Mr Chang, for example, talked about earlier today in relation to international students and their role in these organisations.

Dr Karmel —The universities are obviously free to charge fees to overseas students. That fee covers an educational package which the universities provide. There is no reason to believe that universities will not continue to offer very attractive educational packages to overseas students.

Senator CROSSIN —Is there any specific study or impact that the department has actually looked at in relation to the international export market?

Dr Karmel —No, there has been no specific study.

Senator CROSSIN —That is all I have.

ACTING CHAIR (Senator Carr) —Thank you very much for coming to see us today.

[3.35 p.m.]